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Post by Jaz66 on Oct 16, 2009 1:41:35 GMT 1
Nice pic Cyphron....  Have taken my tank off and air box but stopped at that Nice to see what's under the covers, though.. ;D Sounds like the jobs you did have made quite a difference. and the good thing is you KNOW they where actually done properly  Good luck & ride safe.. |
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Oct 16, 2009 7:57:42 GMT 1
Hi Cyphron, Untill now I've followed this post closely (like all the rest on this forum ;D), but not yet contributed. I like it that you post a lot of photo's. These make all the difference when discussing a technical topic on a forum. I also like the way you are discovering your technical abilities (with the excellent assistance of people like McF ). I know that you get a very good feeling when you've solved a problem yourself. Perhaps you want to have a look at the site I made for my NTV. Then click on the small house on the left, below my photo. Franklin or click here. It's well worth a look www.stoeretassen.nl/My_NTV650/rj2para |
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Post by cyphron on Oct 17, 2009 12:39:55 GMT 1
I was reading the post "Factfile: fans and rads" to confirm my NTV cooling behaviour after the work I did on her, and found that I can identify most of the facts contained in it.
After flushing and refilling the cooling system two days ago, I've made about 150 miles on her. I needed to prove that the fan switched on automatically so did a few trips on city traffic, letting her idle for some time after one of those trips.
I could manage to get the temp gauge up to 2/3 way up and then the fan started to work !
I was happy with the fact, because I have never seen her working before since I bought the bike, and before refilling the coolant system, the temperature gauge has almost reached the last white mark before the red zone for three or four times without the fan showing signs of life.
And now I can explain the fact.
It seems to me that as the system had a small amout of coolant in it, probably it never reached the temperature sensor on the radiator, which turns the fan on when above a pre-determined temperature.
Now this leads me towards another question :
Why there was such a little amount of coolant in the system ?
I have found no leaks since I refilled the system, so the only options that come to my mind are the obvious lack of maintenance of the previous owner, evaporation or water being mixed with the oil and being boiled by the engine (indicanting a leakage in head gaskets).
Are there any common visible signs of blown head gaskets ?
Smoke, choking, lack of power ? The bike has none of these ...
As you saw the coolant that came out when I drained the system had a brownish colour. I guess this is a normal thing that comes with time, but left me thinking in the possibility of some kind of oil leakage or combustion residues into the coolant.
Nevertheless I will be monitoring the coolant level and colour for some time to check if the level decreases below the radiator filler neck where I left it, and to see if the shiny green colour becomes to disappear in short term.
Just as a small note, after refilling the system I started the engine with the radiator cap off, and could clearly see the coolant flowing from the right side to the left side of the radiator filler neck, indicating that at least the water pump works ! :-)
Is there a simpler way to check the system's coolant level without having to remove the fuel tank and look at the radiator filler neck ?
I guess its not worth looking at the coolant reservoir level because this can be at correct level while the system can be almost empty has was the case ...
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Post by ilegalalien on Oct 17, 2009 13:16:57 GMT 1
a broken gasket will be seen if you check the oil, it will have a whitish residue in it, the only way i know is to look under the tank to check the level.. if the system is working ok then it only needs checking every 6 months (UK).. hotter countries probably more... i think i had a bike for 3yrs (rental 600) and i never checked it and it was never serviced, it probably did 100k miles or more and still purred, all it got was brake pads, tyres, oil and a few clutch cables... A true testiment to how good these bikes really are... i bet no one can name another bike that could have done that....
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Post by McF on Oct 17, 2009 13:49:46 GMT 1
Hi Cyphron, you are certainly getting some miles in - well done.
As illegal says, a blown gasket might show as water in oil - white, milky emulsion (like paint), or if oil or exhaust gasses are getting into the water it will discolour the coolant.
It's unlikely that oil getting into your coolant system will cause too much pressure, but exhaust gasses can and that will force more coolant out. The most likely sign that this is happening will be when you stop and the engine is hot, you will get literally, water boiling out of the expansion tank and comes out of one of the rubber tubes in front of the back wheel (you may need to look underneath the engine to see these, there are about 4.)
I think the best thing to do at present is just keep an eye on it, I'm sure there is nothing amiss.
Unfortunately, the only way to properly check the coolant level is to remove the tank and air filter. You may be able to get an impression of what state it is in by squeezing the top radiator hose (engine cool!). With the coolant full, you will not be able to squeeze much. With low coolant, you will be able to squeeze the hose and hear the coolant surging about. Presuming your system is full now, you should at least get an idea of what "full" feels like
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Post by cyphron on Oct 17, 2009 16:44:10 GMT 1
Hi Cyphron, you are certainly getting some miles in - well done. As illegal says, a blown gasket might show as water in oil - white, milky emulsion (like paint), or if oil or exhaust gasses are getting into the water it will discolour the coolant. It's unlikely that oil getting into your coolant system will cause too much pressure, but exhaust gasses can and that will force more coolant out. The most likely sign that this is happening will be when you stop and the engine is hot, you will get literally, water boiling out of the expansion tank and comes out of one of the rubber tubes in front of the back wheel (you may need to look underneath the engine to see these, there are about 4.) I think the best thing to do at present is just keep an eye on it, I'm sure there is nothing amiss. Unfortunately, the only way to properly check the coolant level is to remove the tank and air filter. You may be able to get an impression of what state it is in by squeezing the top radiator hose (engine cool!). With the coolant full, you will not be able to squeeze much. With low coolant, you will be able to squeeze the hose and hear the coolant surging about. Presuming your system is full now, you should at least get an idea of what "full" feels like Well, as you know I changed the oil recently just after buying the bike, and the old oil showed no signs of white milky emulsion. I have never seen water boiling out of the expansion tank also (and therefore no liquids coming out of the rubber tubes near the back wheel), even after the test I've done, where I let the engine get sufficiently hot to trigger the radiator fan. Taking this into account, I presume there isn't coolant contamination on oil yet, or vice-versa. On the new oil I do not see signs of contamination either. Despite this, the old coolant was indeed brownish but I will never know how much time and miles the bike did with it. Probably it got that brown colour because of exhaust gases and some rust, and since there was little coolant on the system, the brown color tends to be more perceptible. But like you said, I'll keep an eye on it. What I would like was a kind of Coolant Level Sensor, for example, using another radiator cap with a dip stick that could indicate the coolant level through a wired indicator... But I have found nothing similar yet ... |
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Post by rj2para (Bisto) on Oct 18, 2009 15:40:04 GMT 1
Cyphron,
i like the idea of a better/easier way to check the coolant level.
I have topped up my coolant bottle a couple of times at the bottle.
Never checked at the rad end yet, oops. Is it a Honda design fault or is it normal to have to strip the bike down?!
May be time to take the tank off.
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Post by cyphron on Oct 18, 2009 21:01:27 GMT 1
Uh oh ... I guess I'am having bad luck with this one ...  Yesterday I noticed a hissing sound coming from the right side hoose connected to thermostat and a drop of coolant spilting. Today I decided to tighten the hoose clamp that connects to the right of the thermostat in order to avoid that hissing sound and the small leak of coolant. I then took a ride with the bike and let the engine get hot to see if the hissing sound had disapeared ... Well ... The hissing disapeared but I got that boiling sound on the expansion tank and coolant coming from one of the rubber tubes in front of the back wheel, like McF said ... Ok, now I think this is a clear symptom of blown gaskets ... The problem hadn't shown itself until I tightened the thermostat hoose clamp, so I guess that until then the pressure was being reduced by the leak on the hoose.... So, What can I expect ? Is this an expensive service, having to replace the head gaskets ? Advice is welcome :-) Thanks |
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Post by ilegalalien on Oct 18, 2009 21:53:31 GMT 1
remover the thermostat and run the bike as normal.. see if it helps
sounds like the thermostat is broken and not opening to allow the water to circulate round the system
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Post by cyphron on Oct 18, 2009 23:55:30 GMT 1
remover the thermostat and run the bike as normal.. see if it helps sounds like the thermostat is broken and not opening to allow the water to circulate round the system Hummm.... I see. Yesterday this didn't happen on the same circumstances. It happened today at morning and happened again at night when I repeated the test. When the temp gauge is around 2/3 way up (when the fan usually started to work), now it starts to boil the coolant on the reservoir letting some come out from the tube. I saw this with the engine hot at iddle, waiting for the thing to happen. I am starting to discard the blown head gaskets theory, since the symptoms are exactly the same at the same condicions. When the gauge reaches 2/3 starts to boil on teh reservoir. When I turn off the engine it keeps boiling for some time until temperature decreases. Maybe thermostat, air in the system or faulty radiator cap ... Bad luck, Yesterday all was ok, no leaks, fan working properly, etc. Today after tightening the hose clamp on the right side of the thermostat because of the hissing sound, it started to boil ... I will also have a little chat with the shop guy to see what he stands for. Thanks. |
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Post by ilegalalien on Oct 19, 2009 9:25:51 GMT 1
k, what i ment was, remove the thermostat from inside the thermostat housing and put it back together, fill the system up with water... water should then circulate through the system and get cooled and not boil, if it dosen't then you have a blockage. I don't think it's your head gaskets.
Take the thermostat into the kitchen... get a pan and fill it with water ,bring it to the boil, you should see it open 8mm at 95°C for 5 minutes, if it don't then smash it up with a large hammer whilst callng it all the bad names (bikers therapy)... Also take the radiator cap to your friend (bike shop) and get it tested, it should hold 0.9-1.3kg/cm² air pressure for 6 seconds.. one of these components is faulty and giving you this problem.
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Post by McF on Oct 19, 2009 11:01:27 GMT 1
Nothing much to add, as illegal seems to have covered it all.
I would follow his advice for now - remove the thermostat from the housing, reseal, refill and run without the thermostat in the system
If you're still having problems, let us know and we'll investigate other causes. Could be head gaskets, but I think it is less likely than a sticking thermostat at present.
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Post by Buzzin (^_^) on Oct 19, 2009 11:38:34 GMT 1
Eh, not sure how sensitive the NTV is, but if this solves your problem, remember to put a working one in  My car has a thermostat stuck open....that's not good either (engine never get's warm) |
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Post by cyphron on Oct 20, 2009 0:09:02 GMT 1
You won't believe this, but I found what the problem was ... The problem was ... ME  !! What I put into the radiator filler was not coolant but PURE ANTI-FREEZE !!!! It is a much more thick and concentrated fluid and obviously was causing too much pressure on the cooling system ... So I had to come out from somewere ... I was stupid when I bought the supposedly coolant, because I misunderstood the sticker on the bottle saying ANTI-FREEZE fluid to use as Coolant on radiators ... But reading the instructions of use, it is supposed to be used mixed with water in the correct proportion and not in pure state as I used it ... Duuuhhhhhhhh !!! I could have damaged something with this joke ... All is ok now. I drained the system again and filled it with the correct coolant !! Now I'm sure !!! Took a ride and now the engine takes longer to get hot and when it happens at the correct point the fan starts to work, with no boiling or hissing at all ... Shame on me ... I guess this is the way we learn ... With our own mistakes... Fortunately, it didn't cause any damage. At least this was a hell of a pressure test !! Appart from the smal leak I eliminated tightening the top right thermostat hoose clamp, there were no leaks at all ... Having no leaks, it had to boil on the expansion tank ... So now you know how to pressure test your NTV's coolant system for leaks ... ;D Do not make the same mistake as me : READ THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY!! |
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Post by McF on Oct 20, 2009 0:44:18 GMT 1
... I guess this is the way we learn ... With our own mistakes... Fortunately, it didn't cause any damage. In Yorkshire we have a saying: T'man what nivver med a mistake, nivver med owt or in English - The man that has never made a mistake has never made anything! Do not make the same mistake as me : READ THE INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY!! and we have a saying for this too When all else fails - read the instructions No harm done and it sounds like you are learning a lot about your aNTy |
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