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Post by rj2para (Bisto) on Apr 8, 2009 20:35:58 GMT 1
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Apr 10, 2009 7:46:26 GMT 1
Hi Roger,
I like this link. I'll have a good read through it and then probably put it as a link on my own NTV-site as well.
For quite some time I've been thinking that a 'safety-tips' thread would be a good idea. After all, it's a nice hobby, but the chances of getting killed or seriously injured are about 7 times higher for a biker than for a car driver (depending on which statistic you read).
So'I'd like to kick this off with a discussion point and 2 of my personal tips:
Discussion point: bright orange (yellow) reflective vests.
Does anybody wear them at all in the UK ?
Over here in the Netherlands there is a big debate going on about the usefullness of these vests.
Recently there was a lettre in one of the dutch biker mags from a motorbike police officer. He claimed that the use of such vests gives the rider a false sense of safety.
He claimed that he very often wasn't noticed by car drivers when he was using his blue flashing lights and sirene !
It could be compare with the use of ABS braking systems in cars when they were new (±10 yrs ago). At that time insurance companies gave you a discount if you had a car with ABS. When in fact the accident statistics showed that more cars with ABS were involved in accidents than cars without ABS.
The reason for this was that the people who drove cars with ABS had the idea that the car could never skid anymore. But in fact an ABS system only prevents your wheels from locking, while you're braking. Thus making it possible to steer the vehicle and avoid a collision by going around the problem.
Two of my personal tips:
* When approaching a potentially dangerous situation, position your left thumb already on the horn-button. This way you can quickly warn the other road users of your presence, without first having to find the button.
* In order to improve your visibility to other road users, don't stay in one place, but move your position once in a while. Because the human eye (brain) is trained to watch movements but tends to forget static objects.
So if I'm approaching a junction and there is a car waiting to cross or join the road that I'm riding, then I will place my left thumb on the horn-button and also move to position of my bike about a yard to the left or the right.
So please, more safety tips and your idea's about reflective vests.
Franklin
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Post by McF on Apr 10, 2009 9:05:00 GMT 1
I've spoken with a lot of people about mandatory safety kit and then a feeling of I'm OK because: I'm wearing a seatbelt I have airbags I'm wearing a crash helmet I have my headlight on I'm wearing safety boots I have ABS How many of us used to always notice Volvo cars with their headlights permanently on? How many of us still notice them? I've spoken with a lot of police traffic officers (bikes and cars) that are amazed how people do not see them. On principle, I do not want to be forced to wear a yellow vest, or have to ride with my headlights on. I prefer to exercise my judgement on when to put them on, but do drive with the attitude that most other drivers on the road have a plan to kill me. As Franklin says, we get accustomed to things and then stop noticing them. We notice something unusual, especially if it's moving (but not too quickly) I bet Norfolk and Hubcap get noticed everytime they are out in their fluffy dog outfits (makes me wonder what they wear in the privacy of their home ;D ;D ;D) However, I can just see the interview notes after driver crashes into another car: "Well officer, I was driving quite safely, with due caution etc, when I suddenly noticed a 2m tall dalmation riding a motorbike, I was so busy looking at him and the pink creature on another motobike that I didn't see the car in front of me had stopped" and oh yes - I was meaning to renew my insurance, but I forgot!! (see www.ntvhonda.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=386&page=1) |
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Post by Jaz66 on Apr 10, 2009 12:38:57 GMT 1
Nice idea franklin..  Here's what i do I do have lights on, but still assume i won't be seen. I don't wear a reflective jacket, just normal bike kit with reflective strips for nighttime/lights. Do think the best safety device is lodged in between your noggin I wonder if anyone has ridden in shirt sleeves in summer? (I know i shouldn't but thats not the question..  ) and did you ride a bit more safe and defensively? I think the idea that we are 'Protected' by seat belt/lights/abs etc just makes some people more reckless. I reckon when you factor in the 'I am MORE vulnerable,' i think we ride more safely, and pay better care and attention to traffic situations. Imho Like the "static V moving target"... ;D Think thats probably very true, we do ignore the parked car but the one moving (from parked) is the one that gets our attention. I do tend to move over from the junction when I see cars trying to exit, just in case... never a bad idea to lok at what we do and see how others deal with different situations. Looks like this post will teach all of us something..  hehehe ....rather feel sorry for the poor car drivers who when stunned by a bike riding Dalmatian, hits another car  try explaining that one to the insurance company, never mind the police.. "But i tell you, it wasn't MY fault........the dalmatian caught me by surprise when it pulled alongside and popped a wheelie..... ) ;D ;D |
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Post by Buzzin (^_^) on Apr 10, 2009 14:02:30 GMT 1
On the feeling of safety: Ever noticed that Volvo drivers are a hazard on their own? (well, that's very generalized, but I always take extra care around Volvo's....past experiences include nearly getting run over, nearly getting hit, nearly hit head on) The cage around them makes them feel extra safe (it's a volvo!) so they tend to take less care when driving. The headlight thing, to me is easy: always on, both on bikes and cars. Why? Large parts of the year I drive in dimly lit conditions, and yes a car is a lot easier to spot in the distance when it has it's lights on. Same goes for people behind me, the vibration in the mirrors sometimes makes it hard to really spot cars/bikes....with lights on it's easy. Fortunately bike manufacturers agree, and most modern bikes don't even have a lightswitch anymore (mine certainly doesn't) The high Vis vests....well....I do put one on when driving at night, and bad conditions where visibility is low (fog). It might not help much front/back (because of the topcase), but on the sides it helps a bit. And besides...it doesn't bother me. All that said, always asume cagers/cyclists/pedestrians don't see you. If they can miss an ambulance with sirens/lights they are NOT going to see you  |
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Post by skyhook on Apr 10, 2009 16:08:40 GMT 1
Best bit of safe driving is...............Every other driver, person is a complete Pratt and you have to think for them. As most peeps drive engine on, [glow=red,2,300]Brain off[/glow] .....Simple  |
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Post by Buzzin (^_^) on Apr 10, 2009 17:05:16 GMT 1
Very wise words |
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Post by rj2para (Bisto) on Apr 10, 2009 21:37:43 GMT 1
On each point 1. (yellow) reflective vests.I used to wear a long sleeved jacket over waterproof over my leathers. I also leave my headlight on. I then assume all cagers are blind and thick. But hope it helps  2. left thumb already on the horn-button. This is an interesting one. yes I do it and when I do, it generally means I am reading the road well as I have time to do it! I have sometimes used the horn followed by a wave of thanks Just in case they think I am grumpy ;D 3. move your position once in a whilepicked this one up of my brother, I don't currently move my road position but I do sit up or extnd my elbows. But given they probably have not seen the headlight or the reflective panels on my new jacket hey ho Which takes us back to skyhook's words of wisdom "Every other driver, person is a complete Pratt and you have to think for them. As most peeps drive engine on, Brain off.....Simple " That said bring on the tips please. 4 warned is 6 armed Roger |
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rusty
'Theory' rider
Posts: 17
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Post by rusty on Apr 11, 2009 23:08:27 GMT 1
I for one use a hi-vis all of the time, sometimes orange sometimes yellow, apparently the ideal is orange and yellow as different people are more atuned to seeing different colours, this may be why emergency services use checkerboard graphics!
Headlight is permanently on, no switch.
I also always carry a spare one, if you get stuck somewhere in the dark, on the motorway, or even if you spot someone else who may be at risk, or you may come accross the scene of an accident with someone trying to direct traffic or help injured people, it may be another biker having a problem or even as recently a guy pushing his bike up the hard shoulder on the M40, a hi vis can help to make you more obvious to other drivers.
They are cheap enough to give away, a local supplier sells them for £2 so even if they only wash 5-6 times they can easily be replaced, for the price of a coffee.
I feel that anything you do to improve visibility is good, and if the worst happens and you get knocked off, you can use it as evidence that you did as much as possible to reduce the risk, this will then put some more burden on the other driver to say why you were not seen!
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on May 8, 2009 8:38:40 GMT 1
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micawber
All Weather Rider, well hard
No longer lurking in the shrubbery.
Posts: 151
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Post by micawber on May 9, 2009 23:11:40 GMT 1
Hi folks.
Being safety conscious is a continuing and constantly changing thing. We need to think for other road users in order to give ourselves the best chance of surviving or at least anticipating their next action.
At one time having your lights on made you stand out -you were different. Now, with more and more vehicles having daytime running lights, and many using fog lights in daylight (what's that about?) you blend in with the rest. The same with high viz vests. At one time you tended to notice them because they were a rarity, but now every council worker or highway contractor has them, you blend in.
We need new ways to be eyecatching (though I draw the line at wearing a furry suit!)
None of the above works if the other person doesn't look in your direction, and even when they do, they may not "see" you, because people seem to be programmed to look for cars or larger vehicles.
As mentioned by franklin and rj2para, changing your position (as in moving across your lane and back when approaching a junction on the right or left) is probably the most practical thing to do, as an object gradually increasing in size is harder to spot than one that tracks across your field of vision. The horn can be a two edged sword, as a warning toot can stop someone pulling into your path, but a blast might make an indecisive person freeze right across your escape route.
A bright headlight makes it harder for the onlooker to judge speed and distance, so riding on main beam may be eyecatching but does not necessarily make you safer. I resisted riding with daytime lights for many years but now compromise by using a 23W running light in place of the pilot bulb. Is it the secret of my success? I dunno. If an ambulance or police vehicle with blues and twos can get ignored, what are the chances with my little bulb?
Like the Dr Pepper advert, we ought to think, "what's the worst that could happen?", and try to keep in mind a Plan B escape route if the other person is indeed a Pratt, inexperienced, elderly, disabled, distracted, timid, aggressive, has no fear of death (think carloads of young chavs egging the driver on), inept, or prone to the usual human failings. After all, they don't generally mean to kill or disable us. They would be most distressed if that happened (though not as distressed as we would be) so it is up to us to help them avoid doing that.
Like many, when I was younger I believed that my superb reactions and superior riding skills would keep me out of trouble.
Looking back, what remains of my hair stands on end thinking what a wonderful illusion, or even delusion, that was.
Having done an awful lot of miles without having had an accident involving another vehicle (fell off a few times!) I must have been doing something right, but there was little training about when I started out and we all just blundered about and learned the hard way. So I would say, make the most of bikesafe or whatever is going in your area. Despite all the "improved" standards in driver training we need all the edge we can get! As jazz66 says, the best safety device is between your ears, so give it all the ammunition it needs to do its job.
The issue of headlights and hi viz has been discussed endlessly in bike forums over the years and many viewpoints have been aired. The main issue for me is compulsion -there is always someone out there in the DoT (usually a non motorcyclist!) who thinks that they know what is good for us. All new bikes now have permanently switched lights, for example. (All right, I know it's the EU).
Not posted for a while. Made up for it now!
Micawber
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on May 10, 2009 7:48:38 GMT 1
Hi Micawber,
Excellent post !
I love the sentence of "what remains of my hair".
One remark: having your headlight on permanently isn't mandatory for EU type-approvals of motorbikes.
Apparently it's the choice of the manufacturers.
Franklin
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Post by McF on May 10, 2009 8:20:25 GMT 1
Hey up Micawber, nice to see you're still around, hopefully keeping well? I had a 23W Side lamp bulb in the mighty Pan, for some reason I thought it was more effective in daytime than dipped beam. The intensity of the light was more eye catching. The previous owner has also fitted a set of LED under the mirrors  (but seen from the front, they're the indicators of course!), these are wired via a relay and independantly switched (I can have them on with side, dipped or main beam, but not on their own). They are quite eye catching so my preferred set up is to ride with side and LEDs on. Several people have said it makes my Pan look even more like a police bike and on my way back from a meeting in Manchester yesterday a group of Gixers and Ninjas slowed down and let me pass. I passed my Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM) www.iam.org.uk/ tests a long time ago and found the experience highly beneficial. I took a check ride 10 years ago and have been promising myself another, when I have time in my diary to be in a definite place at a set time. The IAM preach two main disciplines for safe driving / riding - be at the right speed and in the right position. They encourage driving up to the legal limit, where it is safe to do so. It's only £30 for a years membership plus (I think) around the same for the test. I get three high quality magazines per year and offers of discounts for all sorts including insurance (which I haven't used). We all pick up bad habits and best driving practices change from time to time, so it is useful to have an expert (the examiners are very experienced, advanced Police instructors) take a look at our skills and performance. The test isn't easy, but any rider with say 12 months / 3000 miles experience post test shouldn't have to worry. It takes approx 90 minutes, covers around 40 miles of mixed roads (urban / country / motorway or trunk road) with some slow speed manouvering. Several stops for debriefs and directions. I can still remember my test in 1979 and the final debrief. He went through a lot of points. I still try to ride with those lessons in mind. On my check ride, it's the same standard, but no pass or fail (unless you're downright dangerous). I recommend it to everyone (there is also RoSPA, but I don't know much about that). Well worth £30 then approach the local IAM group for some preparatory rides before taking your test. Going back to Rusty's comments about Hi Vis vests - a great idea to have one stuffed under your seat, for your own, or someone else's breakdown. I'm not a fan of wearing one while riding (probably little point behind the shield of the mighty Pan). Next time I see one, it's in the basket to the checkout. For anyone riding in France, it is now mandatory to have a Hi-Vis jacket IN THE CAR so that the driver can put it on before getting out in the event of a breakdown. I wouldn't expect it to be long before we have a similar rule over here. |
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micawber
All Weather Rider, well hard
No longer lurking in the shrubbery.
Posts: 151
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Post by micawber on May 10, 2009 17:28:32 GMT 1
Hello again.
I think the important thing about any form of training is that it makes you think about what you are doing rather than give you all the answers for all situations, as all training bodies have their own emphasis on different aspects of riding.
I recall my brother, who was a car driving instructor at the time, complaining bitterly to me about his local IAM group (whom he rode with at that time as he was considering expanding into bike instructing), that they seemed to be obsessed with "making progress" making him feel uncomfortable as he was not happy to do their kind of speeds in the situations that they advocated. As anywhere else, riding for yourself is important, as why do we ride if it isn't fun? He is a laid back cruiser type dude given the chance and isn't into "pressing on".
I have been "meaning to" contact my local IAM group to arrange a session for years. Maybe this could be the year?
Interesting point about the lights, McF and goes along with the point that if it looks "different", people take notice. I take the point about keeping a hi viz vest handy, too.
As to the lighting issue, pointed out by Franklin, it looks like the manufacturers don't mind taking away our choice of lights on or off, for the sake of a few euros saved on a switch.
Safe Riding!
Micawber.
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Post by rj2para (Bisto) on May 10, 2009 21:17:06 GMT 1
Hi micawber, also please to see your posts, I know you always say you ramble but it's always worth the read so post away please. Yellow vests are also a must in the car in spain (for all passengers) as is a first aid kit and road triangle. Carying a spare, I had not thought of that, I will get one for my tank bag. I like to wear yellow, if nothing else it reminds me other road users can't see me ride safe Roger |
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