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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Jan 9, 2010 22:01:12 GMT 1
Appologies accepted. I wasn't really offended (as you've probably guessed ;D), but the relationship between the dutch & germans is sort of similar to the british & irish. A dutchman simply does not want to be taken for a german ! GvS PS. Wil you give us a few history lessons before we go on this WW1 tour ? I'm reasonbly well informed about WW2. But all of my knowledge of WW1 comes from watching "Blackadder". As you will probably know; the dutch were not involved in WW1.
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Post by McF on Jan 10, 2010 0:41:34 GMT 1
Appologies accepted. Many thanks! A dutchman simply does not want to be taken for a german ! quite understandable. I shall be asking you frequently to pronounce "Scheveningen" to confirm your nationality Wil you give us a few history lessons before we go on this WW1 tour ? Of course, here's the first: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. I'll do the rest by instalments ;D ;D ;D 8-)but leaping through millenia, we approach the 19th Century, which began with Napolean Bonaparte and his rise to fame and infamy. Seeing his expansion of imperial rule throughout most of Europe; failed attempts at Britain, Portugal and Russia and his defeat at Waterloo in 1815. Europe was in turmoil; several long lasting monarchies had been overthrown or were being diluted of power. Nations were expanding and developing their empires. Britain and what is now the USA had a brittle relationship. As the latter half of the 19th century progressed, we saw the Crimean War 1853 - 1856 with the British, French, Turkish and Sardinian Armies on one side, The Russians and Bulgarians on the other. Curious Alliances were forming, most notably: Germany, Italy and Austria-Hungary and Britain, France, Russia, Russia had a pact with Serbia France had a pact with Russia Britain had pacts with France and Belgium Another significant factor was Germany's envy / fear of the extent of the British Empire. Both Countries were trying to expand in Africa. Britain had the greater Navy and a formidable Army. The German navy was weak, but her Army and most importantly, her General Staff, was highly trained and efficient. Britain was developing concerns at the improvements in the German Navy. There had been a series of minor conflicts in Europe in the early 1900s, mainly in and around the Balkans. The spark that everything off for WW1 was the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, who was heir to the Austro-Hungarian Crown. He was killed in Sarajevo Jun 1914 by a gang known as "The Black Hand". They had two attempts at killing the Archduke, the first made with a few grenades was unsuccessful, they got their result when the victim travelled to a hospital to visit survivors of their first attack. Germany had developed an ingenious "Schlieffen Plan" to help them deal with a threat on two fronts (Eastern with Russia and Western with France). Basically this enabled the German Army to mobilise quickly, fight on the Western Front, defeat the French and then just as quickly, move to the Eastern Front and deal with the Russians. Schlieffen had retired in 1906 and (died in 1913) but his legacy had been taken up by the new Chief of the Imperial Staff, General von Moltke. The plan's masterstroke was a thrust aimed right at Paris, but coming North through Belgium to outflank the French Army. Schlieffen had always insisted that the German right Flank was to be kept Strong, but von Moltke had his own interpretations, one of which was a weak right flank; he kept some troops back for the assault on Russia. The plan had underestimated the speed of response from the French Army and the prompt intervention by Britain after Germany's invasion of neutral Belgium on 04 Aug 14, which directly led to Britain declaring war on Germany that same day; Britain sent elements of the BEF to France on 09 Aug 14. Consequently, the French Army and British Expeditionary Force were to a degree, ready for the Germans, as they rolled through Belgium. On 22 Aug 14, scouts of the German and BEF Reconnaissance cavalry units were patrolling in the area of Mons (Belgium) and made contact with a brief skirmish from which the German troops rapidly withdrew. On 23 Aug, the German Artillery opened fire on British Troops defending a line on the canal that ran through Mons and so began the first major engagement that would see the World at War for 4 full years with the death of more than 15 million troops; in my view it sowed many of the vital seeds that led to World War 2 and a likely further 70 million dead. I'm no expert (far from it), so if my description so far (or any in future) deviates from documented or accepted accuracy, fact etc, I can only apologise and will happily put the record straight
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Post by McF on Jan 10, 2010 9:26:52 GMT 1
I think I have answered "what happened" in the narrative above, but not "why". As a little light reading, I've tried to find a short answer, basically there isn't one! Germany may have been planning a war for 18 months prior to the outbreak of WW1; Europe appears to have been expecting it. Germany's Aims were: 1. Weaken France so that they would never rise as a European Great Power again 2. Make Beligum into a vassal state - this would give Germany control of some important channel ports and therefore pose a threat to Britain 3. Create a German hegemony: Mitteleuropa 4. Become a global power by establishing continental dominance (Mitteleuropa) and pursuing African and Asian imperial pursuits (Mittelafrika) Further reading here www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/origins_01.shtml
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Jan 10, 2010 10:21:03 GMT 1
Look what I found through the BBC link: www.worldwar1.com/I shall be doing a little light reading ( ) in the next weeks......... GvS
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Post by McF on Jan 10, 2010 10:46:40 GMT 1
Worth considering for context are the technologies of the period. TransportGround - largely horse drawn and on foot. The Internal Combustion engine was established, cars and lorries were common, but not plentiful Railways were highly effective at moving men, horses and equipment. Many new lines were laid by both sides to help support their front line troops. Airnot considered important at first. The world's first manned powered flight had only been completed in 1903. Lighter than Airships and slow unarmed biplanes, tethered balloons were used as observation platforms and then for defense against aerial attack. Airplanes were initially used for recconasiance, then pilots started taking pistols, rifles and hand held bombs to drop. Weapons could only fire to the side or rear of the airplane or right over the top of the propeller until technology was developed to enable machine gun timing to fire through the propellor. CommunicationsWireless had been invented in 1880, but was still a primitive technology. Runners, carrier pigeons and visual (flags, semaphore etc) systems were still the order of the day which meant that messages and information were slow to be communicated, especially over longer distances. MaritimeThe great navies were steam powered and armour plated. Submarines were common, but crude www.submarine-history.com/NOVAthree.htm is very interesting TacticsThe British Army last fought in their famous Red Tunics in 1885 at Gennis (The Sudan), but many Regiments were still wearing them in 1914, although the Khaki uniform had been adopted in 1902. At the beginning of the 20th Century, Major Armies still thought it appropriate to march about shoulder to shoulder. The development of breach loaded rifles (quicker and accurate) meant that lightly armed, dispersed, mobile troops (the Boer Farmers) developed an advantage. New tactics were were developed to help exploit advantages of new technologies. The RifleBy 1914, the major Armies were equipped with rifled, magazine loaded (usually only 5 rounds) Bolt Action rifles. Accurate beyond 300 yards and relatively rapid rates of fire. Don't foget the bayonet - at this time the British issue was about 16 inches (40cm) long Automatic WeaponsDevasting rates of fire were capable from machine guns. These were heavy (usually carried on a sledge), water cooled and crew served Artillery.Still largely horse drawn, but effective ranges of 9,000m were common. Developments of munitions had become highly advanced, with timed fuses allowing air bursts, or delayed explosion (underground to collapse trenches) and lets not forget ammunition that was not explosive - the first use of gases ArmourThe tank was a British invention and first used on the battlefield in 1916 during the Somme Campaign (Battle of Flers-Courcelette), although the tactics to exploit their use successfully were not realised until the Battle of Cambrai in 1917 and all of that is really just scratching the surface! The era 1914 - 18 was one of enormous change. All of the technologies above had people furiously working on them - to improve their own capabilities and to defeat the enemy. War often is the catalyst for technology to progress but much of what we take for granted now (less than 100 years later) could not even have been conceived by people at the time.
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Jan 28, 2010 21:55:31 GMT 1
Have we decided on a date yet for this tour ? GvS
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Post by McF on Jan 28, 2010 22:48:50 GMT 1
Well the two popular dates are: 25-28 Jun 02-05 Jul
It looks as though 6 people have voted as able to come and all 6 are able to make both weekends.
My plan is to post a new poll with one vote to see which is preferable and I would have done this already, except, a small problem has cropped up which might limit my availability. If so, it's more likely to mean I can only make the second weekend - I hope to know by the end of next week.
A bit selfish, but if we're going to do the Bottlefilled Battlefield Tour - I'm a crucial part
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Post by McF on Feb 7, 2010 9:22:08 GMT 1
Well the two popular dates are: 25-28 Jun 02-05 Jul It looks as though 6 people have voted as able to come and all 6 are able to make both weekends. My plan is to post a new poll with one vote to see which is preferable and I would have done this already, except, a small problem has cropped up which might limit my availability. If so, it's more likely to mean I can only make the second weekend - I hope to know by the end of next week. A bit selfish, but if we're going to do the Bottlefilled Battlefield Tour - I'm a crucial part Took a bit longer than I thought to sort out, but I will now be in Canada for most of 19 June - 10 July. Looking again at the poll results, the 11 - 14 Jun was popular for 5 voters and is OK still in my diary. So my proposal is that we plan on that weekend. Things to do: Obtain "leave pass" from "significant others", bosses etc Confirm you are going - post back to this thread Then we can start planning properly: Book ferry / eurotunnel crossing - individual responsibility, but worth confirming arrangements first Book dogs, cats, elephants etc into boarding kennels Book campsite - might be worth doing collectively Make sure bikes, camping gear etc are all prepared and ready for the trip (some might need to do a practice). In particular: Bike Serviced Tyres OK (suggest at least 1,500 miles before the legal limit) Confirm any special equipment / preparation for driving in France and Belgium. Confirm you have travel insurance and your bike insurance covers european roads. Confirm you have breakdown cover for europe (unless you're happy without) Documents you need to check and ensure they're valid well beyond Jun 2010 Passport Driving Licence Insurance MOT V5 Registration - make sure your bike is registered in your name and the same address as on your driving licence I found this with some useful tips: www.laroyale.net/driving_in_france_motoring_tips_and_road_safety_advice_for_motorists_motorcyclists_pedestrians.htm#IN_FRANCE,_DO_I_NEED_TO_PUT_DIPPED-BEAM_HEADLAMP_DIVERTERS_ON_MY_MOTORCYCLE_HEADLAMPS
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Feb 7, 2010 13:03:00 GMT 1
Allright, I will put 11-14 June in my agenda & will start to obtain permission from the various bosses. GvS PS. Don't bother to book a ferry for me ;D
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Feb 7, 2010 19:15:08 GMT 1
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Post by McF on Feb 7, 2010 22:43:54 GMT 1
Allright, I will put 11-14 June in my agenda & will start to obtain permission from the various bosses. Well that is two of us then PS. Don't bother to book a ferry for me ;D Can't think why not ;D
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Post by Jaz66 on Feb 7, 2010 22:50:59 GMT 1
oohh..i got a run to scotland the week before and will have used up a lot of time that month. it may be easy for me to get the following weekend off, but it may also be a problem for me. I hate to be a nuisance on this one but i can not say at this moment how difficult it will be for me to get cover for that far ahead. A week or two on the other side and i would have done my penance and covered sufficient weekend work to be able to arrange another weekend off... Not saying i can't do it, just that close to the previous week MAY cause me an issue................
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Post by McF on Feb 7, 2010 22:59:00 GMT 1
oohh..i got a run to scotland the week before and will have used up a lot of time that month. it may be easy for me to get the following weekend off, but it may also be a problem for me. I hate to be a nuisance on this one but i can not say at this moment how difficult it will be for me to get cover for that far ahead. A week or two on the other side and i would have done my penance and covered sufficient weekend work to be able to arrange another weekend off... Not saying i can't do it, just that close to the previous week MAY cause me an issue................ I have a similar problem after the proposed date I thought you might have been the one that couldn't vote for this weekend. Always happy to look at dates say early Sept, either instead of or as well as. Perhaps "as well as" and think about getting our Dutch friends to host a weekend to visit the "Bridge too far". I do draw the line at asking directions for Scheveningen though!
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Feb 8, 2010 19:36:00 GMT 1
As far as I can read between the lines, it is now rather doubtfull that our WW1-weekend in Belgium/France will go ahead.
You're always welcome on this side of the North sea, of course.
There's not a lot to see at "the bridge too far" in Arnhem. I drive over it quite regularly. I wouldn't go especially to see this bridge...........
I'll have a quick search & see what I can come up with for a 'dutch tour'. The area just north of Arnhem is fantastic bike country ;D
GvS
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Post by McF on Feb 19, 2010 22:50:29 GMT 1
Still ready to commit further planning for the proposed weekend on 11 - 14 Jun.
At present it's only looking like GvS and I so there is plenty of room for more if we are going to go ahead with it.
I'm especially keen to hear from the others who advised it looked like a good weekend.
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