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Post by rj2para (Bisto) on Mar 12, 2009 18:50:35 GMT 1
I am sure you will have heard about the German boy yesterday who shot up a school with his dads gun! Listening to the radio today a nutter called in to say the ideal solution was to give the teachers guns. The Uk government is already talking about teacher training in 6 weeks! hey lets make it 7 and add some gun training too. Can't be that hard! and the kids won't be able to talk twice. Personally I think his dad should be charged as the gun was not locked up with the others. I suspect it was under his bed incase of robbery!
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Post by De Graaf van Salland on Mar 12, 2009 20:59:29 GMT 1
According to the dutch TV his dad owned several guns. All of them, exept one, were kept in a safe. The kid & his Dad went to a gun club (shooting range ?) quite often. Unfortunately, that made the boy an excellent gunman.
It's the american conviction that it's not the gun that kills people, but the people who pull the trigger. But I prefer the european view to this matter: keep guns etc. away from the public. Every once in a while some nutter thinks that he/she has to kill a lot of people (just to make a statement ?). If these nutters wouldn't have access to any leathal weapons, then these things wouldn't happen.
But I have a feeling that a little more attention to the poor boy (poor, because I believe that he's a victim as well....), from his parents would have done a lot to prevent this happening.
Franklin
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Post by Jaz66 on Mar 12, 2009 23:40:06 GMT 1
Pretty awful stuff.... Your right franklin, 14 guns in house, only 13 locked up... The loose one was in the bedroom, so yeah probably for defense. Problem in the states is gun ownership, easier to take extreme frustration/angst against many with a gun than with a knife, machete, etc; Here we still get nutters with knives or worse but although the damages they do is fierce they are not as deadly as guns. Guns for teachers? good idea, might make the little B's listen and learn But seriously, will they always be locked away so little good in an immediate way, tho' good for post shooting protection, i suppose. Not sure it is the way to go, but at some point the armed guard may be an option, in an increasingly dangerous world.... Although i take your point re poor lad, we all take responsibility for our actions, sure parents the world over could do better, and the lad has paid the price for his actions, just not too sure that had he survived, many would wear the fact he was 'unhappy' (no offence meant, i know how you meant it.) particularly those close to the victims. Sad world we live in some days
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Post by McF on Mar 13, 2009 9:25:32 GMT 1
I feel a soapbox moment developing ;D
I come from the "person who pulls the trigger is the one to blame" aproach.
I have a shotgun and regularly handle other weapons. I've been trained thoroughly to handle them and have a healthy respect for what they can do.
We do need to have rules to ensure thorough justification for ownership and use and on a continual basis (I get checked every 5 years). I have never been required by the police to demonstrate I have been trained, or am competent to use my shotgun, so perhaps there is a need to pass a test in weapon handling, however, deaths caused by firearms are seldom accidents.
Whatever caused this sad individual to feel he could resolve his problems by causing carnage is beyond me. If his father had left a weapon unsecured (for whatever reason) then he has forfeited his right to own them. I'm sure the guilt and shame for what his son has done and the loss of his son will be punishment enough.
Arming Teachers isn't going to solve anything, but giving them back the ability to make pupils pay attention and behave might make a difference - it never did me any harm (oh grief, sound like my father again!!!). Parents too need to support teachers, After having a whack at school, my biggest fear was the bigger whacking I knew I'd get at home.
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Post by Jaz66 on Mar 13, 2009 13:42:39 GMT 1
hi McF Good points as always Sure the loss of the guns would be like nothing compared to the guilt at the loss of his son, and the circumstance surrounding it. ------------------------ Got agree that the whack etc at school was nothing to the fear of what might happen when i got home. Just think we have had a generation growing up which NO one takes responsibility for them. Parents can't smack or even chastise cos the kids got 'Rights' Police struggle to offer alternatives (clip around the ear) and lose respect because the kids know their rights and have access to lawyers so the police either lose or don't get too involved, and by then it's too late probably.. Teachers, IF they chastise face abuse and threats and often have to face the parents screaming at them for picking on 'Little Johnie' So if you are slightly emotionally unstable, trying to find your way in the world and trying things for the first time..ie;a Teenager with no one to guide you, what chance do you have... ? no wonder so many feel lost and alone. we may have got a whack, but we knew why and where our boundaries where, plus it was a better alternative then letting us take that first turn in to stealing, mugging, burglary or much worse. Not all kids are bad but that peer pressure needs something to balance it, like parental guidance for instance.
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paulie73
Bad ass biker
Still loving the NTV's
Posts: 208
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Post by paulie73 on Mar 14, 2009 0:40:28 GMT 1
I lived in the US for quite a few years and was a Deputy Marshall in a small town (yeah doughnuts!). I often found that if the parents had a sensible approach to guns,ie, theyre not toys and should be locked up at all times. The children followed suit. Unfortunatley we had plenty of parents over there who were more childish than their kids!
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Post by Jaz66 on Mar 14, 2009 3:39:52 GMT 1
Paulie73, good point re guns blah, blah , blah But.....You were a Feckin deputy marshall............ that's a post in itself sir..... _________________________________________ Oh sorry, back on topic. yeah sensible parents probably do pass on the same attitude to their kids, and as you point out there are a good few stupid ones too that pass on their traits as well. I think McF's comment regarding some sort of test would be a good one, just so we never have another Hungerford or a DunblaneNever been shot at, but have been caught in a small incident, which got the old bum twitching, to honest. Check the feltham shootings bbc page The pics by the cars is where we where, all alone with armed response officers outside telling us to stay put..... What happened next was another story, but those officer who were outside before the armed response teams turned up were well brave..... __________________________________________ Tapping your knowledge and experience here. Kinda get the US gun culture, shooting range and hunting but just don't get the semi-automatics, Not sure civilians should have access to stuff like that, surely they only belongs in military circles or in swat units. Anyway, post more on the marshall stuff, eg; are you american, If not how does a foriegner get to be a marshall, etc Jaz
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Post by McF on Mar 14, 2009 8:12:10 GMT 1
I think McF's comment regarding some sort of test would be a good one. just don't get the semi-automatics, Not sure civilians should have access to stuff like that, surely they only belongs in military circles or in swat units. The test situation is pretty crazy. We allow people to pilot a guided missile (cars and motorbikes), but demand they pass a test. A firearms licence is given if you can provide: a genuine requirement (even if it's only a keen interest in target shooting as a sport) Somewhere to shoot (this has to be a gun club, or rabbitting, game shooting etc on private land) A safe and secure place to store your weapon. A couple of referees to vouch for your good character A clean criminal background. Every 5 years, you have to revalidate all of the above points, but other than a visual check of the security arrangements, the firerarms officer does not ask you to demonstrate proficiency. I have to produce my licence every time I purchase ammunition and have to report any changes to weapon ownership. As I said in my first post, the killings and woundings we read about are not usually (excepting certain US Senior politicians www.youtube.com/watch?v=hijRhGh8j0g) accidents in handling. The tradgedy that initiated this thread was an intentional act by a disturbed youngster who was clearly experienced in weapon handling. Semi Automatic weapons reload themselves, but only fire the next round (bullet) when the trigger is pulled. They give a higher rate of fire than a totally manual weapon, but otherwise there is little difference. Semi Automatics are not banned in the UK, with the exception of a single barrelled shotgun, which is limited to a magazine capacity of two rounds (and therefore no different to a double barrelled shotgun which fires the second round directly after the first when the trigger is pulled a second time, without having to manually rechamber a round). Semi Automatics are useful and under UK controls, present little threat beyond a fully manual weapon. I believe what Jazz is talking about are automatic weapons which reload AND fire while the trigger is squeezed. Many people would call these "machine guns". The Russian AK47 is a classic example of a rifle that can fire on both semi and fully automatic settings. Fit a magazine, put it on "Semi" and every time you squeeze the trigger, a round will fire until you empty the magazine (it's very reliable, so we can ignore stoppages (faults that prevent it from firing)). However, select "Auto", squeeze the trigger and it will continue firing a continuous burst until either you release the trigger or you run out of ammunition (usually 30 rounds, but a drum magazine considerably bigger can be fitted). I can see no requirement for a civilian to need an Automatic weapon. Automatic fire is not accurate - it's not meant to be. It's designed to frighten the bejazus out of the guy (or girl) at the target end, and perhaps score a lucky hit. A single shot can demonstrate a lot of skill in accuracy and therefore, for those interested, has a relevance to civilians for target shooting, or hunting. Precision weapons are bolt action (fully manual) - think of a classic sniper rifle and usually have small (5 rounds or so) magazines, or individually chambered rounds. My sister lives in North Carolina. Although I'm very familiar with weapons and comfortable being around them. US gun culture scares the bejazus out of me. Provided you're not in the city limits, you can own just about anything and fire it where you want. Her husband (a safe and sensible man), owns a small arsenal, including a Chinese Type 56 (their version of the AK47), which is capable of emptying it's 30 round magazine in less than 5 seconds. Fired like that, the rounds would spray around in a very wide arc. In the standing position, shoulder held, by the time they have got to 100m, this would probably be up to 2m across. I'm with Jaz - no need for these in civilian hands! Paulie73 - fascinating, tell us more about being deputy dawg.
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Post by Jaz66 on Mar 14, 2009 15:44:49 GMT 1
Hi McF Thought you might have meant D1ck 'the shotgun' Cheney...hehehe Thanks for clearing the semi-auto, genuinely thought it offered 1 shot or 'machine gun' mode... And i'm glad you said it 'Deputy dawg' I thought that would have been a cool name for paulie73.... ;D
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Post by Buzzin (^_^) on Mar 14, 2009 16:04:54 GMT 1
As demonstrated by Jeremy Clarckson once trying to shoot a van from a not to great distance with an AK-47 set to auto. Not a single hit.... My view is slightly different to most I suppose: No weapons for civilians beyond perhaps airguns. Here the laws are strict enough though. All firearms must be registered, and you can only have them to go to a shooting club. (the club checks for strange behavior) You must be a member, and the first while you are not allowed to take it home. Once you are allowed to take it home, weapon and ammo must be stored separate, and locked. (and prove that they are) The route home must be direct, no shopping on the way! There is also a maximum of 5 guns per person, although this can be easy to bypass (my uncle put guns on his wifes name and a friend...both had to become members of the club first). Another strange thing: The airguns...I own a semi-automatic airgun (Crossman on CO 2) and it's 'legal'. It's bright red, and the Hammer had to be filed off (it was fake anyway). This so it wouldn't be mistaken for a 'real' gun..... Mind you, getting one of these in your face still isn't a nice thing But it satisfied all I wanted, target practice in the woods...(poor tree) I might even get a few replicas, even though they are VERY illegal here. (Plastic ones that fire 6mm plastic bullets.....max allowed for toy/airguns is 4.5 mm/.122) I still have no idea how hunting is done....as 1 there isn't much, and 2 I assume the red tape for it must be awful... (getting a license to carry any gun around is difficult) But the thing is....this only stops kids from playing with daddies gun.....criminals are not exactly known for keeping to the law... The one thing I do agree with is that (nearly) all cops here wear a gun. I have seen situation in which without it they would be dead. Unfortunately even that has gone wrong....every bullet shot by a cop here means tons of paperwork, and usually the cop has to justify him/her self because everyone (including their superiors) assume it was wrong... (But in life/death situations they are still glad to have the gun...) So if this is not coherent....just writing as I am thinking...and my head is chaotic ps. just to add to the confusion: there is another mode some weapons have: burst I believe it's called. Fire x rounds with one squeeze of the trigger and stop again (Usually 3 or 5). Again, not meant for sniper accuracy but better then full-auto, and still fire some more rounds (Yes...I know waaaay too much about guns for someone that thinks noone should have them apart from lawenforcement/military)
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Post by Jaz66 on Mar 14, 2009 16:24:57 GMT 1
Hi buzzin Agree with.. Yeah the bad guys do tend to ignore all the rules.... Wouldn't like to see it here but it probably will become the norm at some point..(we do seem to creeping towards it, how often have we seen police with guns over here,? in the street and at the airport is pretty common) Not sure where i first read it but 'better to be judges by 12 then carried by 6' does come to mind....
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Post by Buzzin (^_^) on Mar 14, 2009 17:15:20 GMT 1
True, but it's a bit sad when police officers are assumed guilty and having to prove they are innocent...
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Post by Jaz66 on Mar 14, 2009 17:22:33 GMT 1
Do agree buzzin, who are we to judge them at such a crisis moment?.
Restricted gun duties perhaps until reviews clears then.? but definitely just like us presumed innocent UNTIL proven guilty
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paulie73
Bad ass biker
Still loving the NTV's
Posts: 208
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Post by paulie73 on Mar 18, 2009 22:17:14 GMT 1
Ok Jaz, I'm english but lived in Indiana,USA for years. As long as you are legally in the country you can become involved in Law Enforcement however not in the State Police. I was in a one horse town. It was great fun and I felt safe with my Colt 45 semi auto on my hip. I can say through experience that been shot at is much more than a bum twitching episode. (I had to laugh when I read that).
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Post by McF on Mar 18, 2009 23:42:18 GMT 1
I can say through experience that been shot at is much more than a bum twitching episode. (I had to laugh when I read that). Aaah, the smell of cordite, the crack of the round zipping past your ear - much better than Sennacot. I've just finished an excellent book if anyone wants to get a good feel for life in the firing line. "Eight lives down" by Major Chris Hunter ISBN 978-0-552-155571-7. An account of his 4 month tour in Basra as an EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) Operator in which he was personally targetted by the Iraqi insurgents and a particularly harrowing description of an ambush his team ran into. Nothing to do with motorbikes, but if you read no other book this year, pick up a copy of this one.
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